Hi Edwin, this is just a question out of pure curiosity, but with your great work you are arousing our expectations. I suppose we all wonder what are your plans regarding the first official version, when you expect it to be out, and what of all our suggestions that you mentioned as "being on your list" is going to be included in the first version. I'm particularly excited about the corkboard which is such an essential thing for plotting. Are you indeed working on it, or is it saved for later? How do you plan to implement it - as a small separate program? Most of the existing Windows programs that have it didn't quite work for me - quite clumsy for one reason or another.
[Implemented] Corkboard
(41 posts) (8 voices)-
Posted 2 years ago #
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Hi Andrej, Thank you for asking.
Regarding the first official versionn, I am planning to release it as soon as possible once the 'restore from old revision', search result preview and compile output options are added.
After that, multi-column outliner and the corkboard should be on top of the others. Speaking of corkboard, what limits have you experienced with other tools? How would you expect corkboards work within Writing Outliner?
Some of my basic thoughts:
1. Each branch in the project outline can be represented as a corkboard;
2. Each document node in the project outline is corresponding to one note card in a corkboard (as inspired by Keith's scrivener). This assures the corkboard system is seamlessly integrated into the rest of the software, but also introduces restrictions - such as a) should we allow freehand moving each index card in the board?Everybody else who is interested in such a corkboard function please don't hesitate to provide your input! Thank you!
Posted 2 years ago # -
@ "a) should we allow freehand moving each index card in the board?"
In case this is meant as a question to users: I'd vote Yes.
Because thats what you do with index cards: move them, try out different combinations, then go back, look at it, think...
Without the option to move the cards freehand it's only half the fun.Posted 2 years ago # -
I agree each document node should be represented as a card on the board, that's the basic thing. From there on there are plenty things to be considered, and I suppose different people here have different habits, so I should just describe the way it would work for me; others please contribute your approaches!
1. The fundamental thing for me would be that the corkboard should be the place where you can START building a project. So once you create a blank project, you should be able to start scribbling the cards representing scenes (or chapters or whatever) and moving them around freely. The content of these cards should be the synopses of the documents so created (So when you create a card, you basically create an empty document to be filled later, but you have to write the synopsis, and probably a title (document name)).
2. The rearrangement of the cards means the actual rearrangement of the documents in the outline. So the corkboard is also an interface for inserting new documents at any location at any stage of writing, as well as rearrangement. Cards movement should be as easy and predictable as possible (dragging and automatic rearrangement after movement, insertion at the (right-)click point etc.)
3. There are several possible arrangements. The simplest is just consecutive, from left to right, row after row. The problem is that it is difficult to keep track of several strands of the story this way (plot and subplots, or narrations of different characters). The minimum thing is to allow for COLOR coding (to color plot card red, for example, and suplots different colors). An even better solution is to enable the arrangement of cards by STRANDS based on, for example, tags that you add to the documents. For example, if you use three tags for three narrators, you can arrange the cards in three (differently colored) columns/rows.
4. If strands are used, it should be possible to choose whether you want to align the strands vertically or horizontally (columns or rows). Programs like Writer's Cafe use horizontal storylines, but I use a vertical screen (so it resembles a sheet of paper) and can much beter use a vertical alignment. This means that you have, for example, three/four empty columns, and you arrange the cards down the page wherever you want (in some exotic cases you may even want to have parallel cards in two different strands...)
5. From every card there should also be an easy access to Notes that the documents in Writing Outliner have. You would usually fill the cards with a brief synopsis, but also accompany it with a note on how you want to develop the idea etc.
6. Double clicking a card would open a document so you can start writing it right away.
And this is just a start :-) I can provide plenty more ideas (have tried a few pieces of software like StoryBox, StoryBook, Writer's Cafe), but first let's see what others have to say about their expectations.
Posted 2 years ago # -
HI Andrej,
Excellent! I am in favor of all your thoughts! Would you explain a little more on " (in some exotic cases you may even want to have parallel cards in two different strands...)"?
Another thought of mine: Should we also allow adding to the corkboard note cards that are not corresponding to any document in the project? I mean those cards are only visible in the corkboard (for whatever purpose), but don't have a document associated.
@Michael,
Sorry, I didn't describe it clearly by "freehand", of course users should be able to move the note cards around freehand, my question was: as opposed to forcing all note cards to be strictly aligned to a hidden grid, should we also allow the index cards to be overlapped by one another?Posted 2 years ago # -
More to Andrej:
Please don't hesitate to add all your thoughts here, for they might inspire people (including me) to generate more thoughts, especially to me, even some features can be 'saved for later', but from the perspective of software design, the more I know from start, the easier new features can be added in the future. Thank you!Posted 2 years ago # -
Hi Edwin,
Happy to here you're planning to implement the corkboard feature. For me that will be a great feature. I would use this feature for planning before writing and restructuring during writing.
I basically plan my work as a three act structure with the second act being divided into two parts, each part being approximately the size of act one or act three. So it comes out looking like a four act structure. Acts are arranged side by side in vertical columns, with cards for sequences, chapters and scenes. Chapters and scenes correspond to documents in my work in progress. Note cards that do not correspond to any document in the project would be OK for indicating acts and sequences. Cards should be able to be moved between columns, within columns and should automatically rearrange themselves to fit the new order.
Here are two web pages that I have used as a guide for implementing this method:
An explanation is at:
http://thedarksalon.blogspot.com/2010/03/index-card-method-and-structure-grid.htmlFurther explanation and pictures are at:
http://www.dianechamberlain.com/blog/?p=1143Being able to have all this planning available in the outliner program would be great.
If you have any questions let me know. Thanks again for your work on this program. I am enjoying it.
Bob
Posted 2 years ago # -
Hi there. Free, unassociated notecards are a good idea, especially for the reason why I mentioned the possibility of parallel cards. Let me explain.
The case I had in mind was the following: you have several strands, in my novel for example the main plot (protagonist's conflict with a neighbour) and several subplots (or lines of background information), for example love story, history of the house, and relationship with mother. But then I had scenes that belonged primarily to one of the strands, but were partly associated with others. Ideally I would want to have this card placed in the strand it primarily belongs to, but also have cards (now that you proposed: these could be free cards not associated with the document - or perhaps associated with the same document?) placed paralelly to it in other strands to write in the details relevant to them.
The benefit of this is of course that you can have a great overview of all information relevant to a particular strand as it is revealed by scenes just by looking down the relevant column (or row, for those who prefer horizontal alignment).Generally, you can have a look at StoryBoook and its Chronological View (http://storybook.intertec.ch/joomla/index.php/screenshots-views). It's not a bad program, but it's somewhat clumsy because cards are not freely draggable and rearrangable (you have to arrange them by inserting exact dates in a timeline), is somewhat rigid and in some things too complex, but worst of all, it's not connected with an editor like Word (it's meant just for plotting, not writing). Writer's Cafe also has a good timeline, but is again often clumsy to use.
There's another detail that no program I know has. Related to your question: yes, ideally I would want to have a grid (to develop strands in). The notes in it should have fixed width (to fit the column), but the height should expand according to the amount of text typed. You normally would type huge amount of text there, just a few sentences in a small font, so why not have the ability to see the whole of it without scrolling inside a card. So fixed width/automatical height (or vice versa for those who prefer horizontal timelines). Or the possibility to switch it off, if somebody finds card with diferent heights annoying.
I will be adding more. Unfortunately I'm not in this line of work right now - I will probably start my editing in June. The ability to import the document parsed by heading by then would be useful :-)
By the way, did you note my idea a while ago to assign templates to additional folders that you create (on par with Draft, Notes, Research)? I'm most interested in the possibility of assigning one's own Characters template to a Characters folder. Probably every writer would want to use templates of their own design for character developemnt.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Hi Bob and Andrej,
Sorry for being late, there was a traditional festival here.Thank you for the details and links, I have read them more than one time and now I have had a better understand and more thoughts.
At this point, and I think it's enough for me to go, it'll be efficient to discuss it further when we have a basic working corkboard in Writing Outliner Word Add-in.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I'm late sorry. One more thing-consider the needs of non-fiction writers if you haven't already. I would use cards to contain information as I gather it from the very beginning. So cards for me would need to be able to contain not just my ideas but things I find online in searches or info that I copy and paste into cards. Would it be possible to have more than one memoboard or corkboard? It might get crowded with only one. And each could then represent a major point in an outline, for instance.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Hi Joan,
Welcome! Yes, index cards in a corkboard can be used for gathering information - actually Writing Outliner will not limit the way you use it, text in the cards can be drafts, notes or whenever you want.Regarding multiple memeboard, yes, that's the nature of it.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Edwin,
I applaud your ideas of introducing a corkboard / notes / storyboard concept.
What a GREAT idea. I had been trying for years to get infoselect (a free form database) to move in the direction of multi - columns (have been using it since 1987) but to no avail.
Please - The corkboard idea is a good one.
George
Posted 2 years ago # -
Hi George,
Good to know that you like the idea, it should the the first priority once the first public release is out.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Hey,
Here is an update of the new Corkboard (note cards) function in the upcoming new version of Writing Outliner:
http://writingoutliner.com/writing-software/blog/the-upcoming-corkboard/
Posted 1 year ago # -
With a screenshot!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Looks good. Will there be grid alignment, columns & rows? Can't wait to see this in action. Hope this one will avoid codepage issues.
By the way, are you planning to improve the multi-column outliner? As it is, it is pretty much useless for anything but a VERY basic overview (it can't even be printed properly).
Posted 1 year ago # -
Hi Andrej, Sure.
And I'll be improving the Multi-column Outliner in the future.
Posted 1 year ago # -
> Here is an update of the new Corkboard (note cards)
Magnificently !
I'd like its.There is very well - any positions of Index cards (without strong order).
I think best way is to make grid alignment, columns & rows in the futures release, as Andrej say.
I hope You make possibility to change background color or picture AND to set standart (same) size for all Index cardBest wishes.
IgorPosted 1 year ago # -
Hi Igor,
Yes, I think allows moving the index cards freely is a very good thing.
As to changing the background color of the index cards, I've been thinking should we set the color according to the color of "document label", or make it another property of the documents? What you guys think?
Posted 1 year ago # -
> As to changing the background color of the index cards, I've been thinking should we set the color according to the color of "document label", or make it another property of the documents? What you guys think?
Edwin, I would suggest to leave it completely for users choice. For instance, I think I will use the corkboard and index cards independently from my projects/documents.
Best regards!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Hi Wojciech,
Can you be specific?
Posted 1 year ago # -
> Edwin, I would suggest to leave it completely for users choice
It is good idea.
I think User must have choice to set any color or background image for corkboard-background. (as it is in word-document now)Posted 1 year ago # -
Hi Igor,
Are you talking about the background of the cards or the board itself?
Posted 1 year ago # -
> Can you be specific?
I meant that I plan to use the corkboard and index cards metaphor for jotting down sudden ideas, pinning them to the board and manipulate them and brainstorming later. It happens quite often that several concepts come to mind not related to what you are working on at the moment. Of course, there are dozens of programs for making/storing notes and mindmapping - including yours - but as you know - I will always ask and encourage you to develop Writing Outliner in the 'all-in-one' direction: 'The Complete Writing Environment'. This is the potential I see in your application, and in your approach.
As to your in initial questions about colours - I would like to be able to choose any colour both for the board itself, and for the cards.
By the way, I would also like to be able to create both as many separate boards, and sets of cards with different colours pinned to each of them, as I need.
Best regards!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Hi Wojciech,
You'll be able to create both as many separate boards, because in a Writing Outliner project a folder is a corkboard.
RE. The background color of the cards, I know you want to change them - but my question is: should the card background color be set according to the color of the currently existing "label" icons' colors, or should it be independent. Anyway, I might leave this to the next version of the corkboard.
PS. I agree with you about the all-in-one approach for writing, and that's what I'm trying to accomplish (over time in the future). :)
Posted 1 year ago # -
BTW, I don't think changing the corkboard background color is needed, because the more options the software offer, the more complex it becomes. I might be wrong though...
Posted 1 year ago # -
> Are you talking about the background of the cards or the board itself?
the board itself
> I don't think changing the corkboard background color is needed
Maybe It isn't in nearest release, but I think It will need in the far future
Posted 1 year ago # -
As far as I'm concerned, the color of the card can be the same as the color of the label; it would just be handy if I can change it simply by right-clicking on the card and selecting it.
The ability to change the corkboard background is a nice touch and a matter of personal taste. I would probably expect this possibility to be included, but wouldn't weep it it wasn't.
Just two questions:
* are all cards connected to subdocuments, or are there independent cards with no document attached? (I remember you were asking about our opinion on this a while ago, I wonder what you finally decided).
* when are we finally going to be able to see all this? Very anxious here :-)Best,
AndrejPosted 1 year ago # -
Hi Andrej,
Thanks for continually commenting on this. Yes, all cards are connected to a documents in a Writing Outliner project.In the future, do we need some "pure" index cards that does not show in the project outline?
Re. The release date, by the end of this month or earlier Dec. but by the end of this month I'll at least be able to show some more things (maybe a video) about the corkboard and the index cards.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Well, the "pure" index cards were your idea, and I immediately found a good use for them (to add comments that I want to see on the corkboard at all times, but with no actual documents behind them). So if you had them, I would find them quite handy; but I can live without them (I don't think any rival program has them).
Posted 1 year ago #
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